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Post by saskabronco on Dec 21, 2013 3:04:06 GMT -5
There is actual very little by way of historical accounts of Jesus, especially written by people who were actual alive at the same time as him, which is surprising considering his miracles and such. You'd think someone at the time would have jotted down a note or two about him. Most of the sites posting info about the historical accuracy of Jesus are Christian sites or Christian posters who are grasping at straws to prove something. They are going about it the wrong way though. They started with the answer they want to get and are trying to find any evidence possible to support their desired answer. True research should be about finding an answer using available data, not the other way around. By no means am I saying he could not have existed, but the debate is absolutely acceptable. As for the X-mas thing, I know many Christians think it is a secular thing where people are crossing the Christ out of Christmas, but actually it originates from the old English use of the abbreviation Xt or Xp for Christ. This came from the greek letter Chi (which was basically an X) which was the first letter in the Greek word for Christ. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmas. You have every right now not like the term, but I thought you might find that interesting. And I'm sorry about the Santa thing, but I did do the Spoiler and provided ample warnings... I think that one's on you for daring to read on
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Post by saskabronco on Dec 21, 2013 3:18:53 GMT -5
saskabronco - I am an atheist as well, agnostic actualy keeping an open mind...just in case. lol What I've found is most Christians are more likely to try to shove it down your throat than atheists are, or Jews for that matter. First of all, New Year's is also part of the holiday season. So there are more than one holiday that people miss work for. So even if I was Christian, saying Happy Holidays isn't wrong, because there is more than one holiday grouped together to make up the "Christmas Holidays". New Year's has absolutely nothing to do with Christmas... so Happy Holidays is very accurate. And as I mentioned, people get vacations because of the government. And both your government and mine, in Canada, and not religious at all. So Christmas day being a federal holiday is a result of a government that is not Christian, or any other religion. Individuals representing the government may be of a certain faith, but government as a whole is not of any faith. And as I mentioned before, Christmas is not solely a Christian holiday, they just took the naming rights. I disagree here. Christmas is a direct result of a gov't that is Christian. How can you think otherwise? It was the only game in town a century ago, maybe even by just before the end of WW2, by probably a good 50-1 except for Native Americans. There were people a mere 50 - 75 years ago in many parts of the Midwest that still believed Jews had horns, not kidding. That said, if someone says to me 'Merry Christmas', that's nice, it's meant in the spirit of holiday merriment. I think most that have taken offense are also very religious people of other faiths. But they should NOT take offense. They are not saying 'screw Chanukah' or 'screw Kwanzaa' or whatever. (FWIW Kwanzaa is a (relatively) brand new 'concept', if you will, for African-Americans in addition to their Christmas. It's very barely a real holiday). But if you don't celebrate Christmas, be gracious about it. This 'Happy Holidays' crap is probably more a result of Hallmark and Capitalism in general than anything else anyway, that cater to those that don't wanna feel left out or leave themselves out of season festivities with their Christian friends. Jews have money, get them involved. Others do too nowadays. Happy Holidays is PC, can't go wrong. But I can understand how Christians are offended - it's Christmas, not holidays, get over it. I was not brought up Christian. However many/most of my good friends are. Regardless, and this is not really a secular society, but it is what it is. It was just a couple years ago, wasn't it ( ) that it was deemed whether or not kids should have to have to recite 'one nation under God'. I am not offended by people saying Merry Christmas either. I think it is a wonderful gesture when anyone of any faith is wishing me good tidings. My one point is that Christmas is less about Christ than many people think, but the Christians have attempted to monopolize the holiday through the name and meaning. There are multiple holidays over this season so I see nothing wrong with covering your bases. Christians shouldn't be offended. They have their holiday regardless of what others believe. Many Christians aren't willing to wish Jewish folk a happy Hanukkah nor acknowledge Ramadan for Muslims, so why should all the others be forced to wish Christians a Merry Christmas? To everyone: Enjoy your holiday season, whatever it may be, but if someone chooses not to believe what you believe, don't get offended. Remember that you are also choosing to not believe what they believe. It's a two-way street.
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Post by Jancey on Dec 21, 2013 4:22:01 GMT -5
And I'm sorry about the Santa thing, but I did do the Spoiler and provided ample warnings... I think that one's on you for daring to read on I was kidding lol... besides you said "if you still believe Santa is real, don't click this" ~ LOL
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 9:03:07 GMT -5
Bronco....In ref to your last post...
Christmas is less about Jesus, because Christmas has been manipulated,monopolized and commercialized. Just last night as me and my wife were Christmas shopping,In the rain,with headaches,in a crowded walmart in Texas ,she got stressed out about money and what to get 1 of the grandkids we have for Christmas. I could tell she was getting really stressed (pissed). I just looked at her and said ..calm down,take a deep breath...you know Christmas is not about that.
We all have to take a step back sometimes...Its human nature.
Many people know that Jesus was not born on Christmas Day...But tis the day that it was decided to celebrate.
I dont get easily offended by anyone or anything,so if someone said Happy Holidays to me I say Merry Christmas to them and go my merry way.
What people need to realize is that your faith is between God and yourself. It always has been.
I myself will continue to celebrate the birth of Jesus,even though I know he was not born on Dec 25th,and I will continue to keep whats important about Christmas in my heart.
Does not mean we cant buy our loved ones gifts and such.
Its all about moderation.
Christmas is important to the kids,so we must do our best to make it a special day for them,make memories with them,and teach them the right things. One day...like me,,,those kids will grow up and become old and gray,and remember the special times around Christmas that they spent with family,because Christmas is different when you're an adult. My kids are only in their 20's now and they tell me all the time that they wished the were 7 years old again at Christmas.
So with that....I wish all of you a Merry Christmas and a Happy Holidays ..whichever one you prefer. My God wrote and taught me not to hate.
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Post by saskabronco on Dec 21, 2013 9:58:51 GMT -5
Bronco....In ref to your last post... Christmas is less about Jesus, because Christmas has been manipulated,monopolized and commercialized. Just last night as me and my wife were Christmas shopping,In the rain,with headaches,in a crowded walmart in Texas ,she got stressed out about money and what to get 1 of the grandkids we have for Christmas. I could tell she was getting really stressed (pissed). I just looked at her and said ..calm down,take a deep breath...you know Christmas is not about that. We all have to take a step back sometimes...Its human nature. Many people know that Jesus was not born on Christmas Day...But tis the day that it was decided to celebrate. I dont get easily offended by anyone or anything,so if someone said Happy Holidays to me I say Merry Christmas to them and go my merry way. What people need to realize is that your faith is between God and yourself. It always has been. I myself will continue to celebrate the birth of Jesus,even though I know he was not born on Dec 25th,and I will continue to keep whats important about Christmas in my heart. Does not mean we cant buy our loved ones gifts and such. Its all about moderation. Christmas is important to the kids,so we must do our best to make it a special day for them,make memories with them,and teach them the right things. One day...like me,,,those kids will grow up and become old and gray,and remember the special times around Christmas that they spent with family,because Christmas is different when you're an adult. My kids are only in their 20's now and they tell me all the time that they wished the were 7 years old again at Christmas. So with that....I wish all of you a Merry Christmas and a Happy Holidays ..whichever one you prefer. My God wrote and taught me not to hate. I hope what I've been saying doesn't come across as if I hate Christmas. I love getting together with family over the holiday season. You don't have to be Christian to love spending time with family. My whole rant is focused on how obsurd I view the overly arrogant, vocal Christians (whom I don't believe represent the majority of Christians) who believe there is a war on Christmas. Jeff, I have the utmost respect for your views. Christmas means whatever it means to each individual. It doesn't have to be about Christ, but it certainly can be. More than anything else, if people could just not hate, the world would be a much better place. I honestly hope you and your family have a wonderful Christmas Jeff. And the same goes to everyone, regardless of what you believe.
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Post by Divebitch on Dec 21, 2013 11:40:07 GMT -5
There were people a mere 50 - 75 years ago in many parts of the Midwest that still believed Jews had horns, not kidding. Implying they don't... I think my brother has/had a bronze statue like that. I am in Canada, not America, but we deal with mostly the same issues in terms of religion. I can tell people I don't believe in God and people are fine with that, but for me to call myself an atheist means people think I'm a bad person, even those two things are literally exactly the same. Calling myself an athiest says nothing more about me than that I don't believe in God, and the rest is all assumptions based on other atheist's actions. I don't believe that the school board believes Jesus offends people. What offends people is that one group that is not the majority when you factor in all other faiths thinks they have the right to push their views regarding Jesus while not being willing to listen to a story about the prophet Muhammed or Krishna or anyone else. To the rest of us, Jesus is not the saviour of mankind and we don't care to have your views forced down our throats. Would you find it offensive to have a school play where Muslim views were assumed to be 100% true and your views were treated like a joke? Jesus doesn't have a place in public schools. He has a place in Churches and in the hearts of believers, but the rest of us don't care to have it forced on us. Freedom of religion gives us all the right to choose. That's why it's worded 'Freedom of RELIGION' and not just 'Freedom of CHRISTIANITY'. On the 'atheist' vs. 'I don't believe in God'... Trivial point, but the latter could also be construed as 'agnostic'. Subtle point, but 'atheist' defines who you are to some extent, it's a label. 'I don't believe in God' is just one way we can't label or define you, although there will be some that will, who intellectually (vs. subconciously/intuitively) recognize that it's the same thing (especially if you put it more like 'I believe there is no God'). I'd disagree on the school board thing. Christians comprise the overwhelming majority in American schools. Other religions have not been treated as a 'joke', at least not in my lifetime in public schools. They've just been largely ignored. You would expect to go into a Buddhist nation like Thailand and see a play about Christmas, much less Jesus. You wouldn't expect to see a play about Chanukah in Italy or Mexico. As far as American schools "not being willing to listen to a story about the prophet Muhammed or Krishna", there's just no time, money, or enough interest. Which brings me to this... I would completely agree however that Jesus, especially as the son of God, and our savior, has no place in a public school in a society that labels itself as secular. Similarly, being secular opens up a can of worms when it comes to local and to a lesser extent Federal funded gov't attention to religious holidays. Greater extent to local, cuz it's mostly the bigger cities that have become much more integrated each year. But Christianity, albeit from several Western European countries, was the 1st and most major emigration to America, and really the only one for a couple centuries until the slaves from Africa - who were of course treated as such, property with no voice.
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Post by danb6177 on Dec 21, 2013 18:04:45 GMT -5
saskabroncowe could go back and forth with our opinions but we are not on the same page. You see Christianity through the eyes of an atheist and i see it through the eyes of a Christian. You did mention rights however. To say Jesus has no place in schools because the world is secular makes sense to you (rightfully so). However the forcing of the absense of something is equally as bad as the forcing of the presence of something. To tell me (a christian) that Jesus does not belong in school is the forcing of your belief upon mine. Just the same as me saying that Jesus should be in school which you would consider religion being forced upon you.
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Post by Jindred on Dec 21, 2013 18:25:50 GMT -5
saskabroncowe could go back and forth with our opinions but we are not on the same page. You see Christianity through the eyes of an atheist and i see it through the eyes of a Christian. You did mention rights however. To say Jesus has no place in schools because the world is secular makes sense to you (rightfully so). However the forcing of the absense of something is equally as bad as the forcing of the presence of something. To tell me (a christian) that Jesus does not belong in school is the forcing of your belief upon mine. Just the same as me saying that Jesus should be in school which you would consider religion being forced upon you. I don't believe he is saying it doesn't belong in school. He is saying it doesn't belong in public school. There is a difference. I am not sure about America but in Canada we have 3 main different types of school systems, Public, Separate and French Immersion. Separate schools for the most part are catholic schools that teach those values there is a Religion class dedicated purely to religion and many of the things taught in the school are taught with a sense of "Christian values" attached to them. The Public school system doesn't deal with religion, the leave it to parents/ churches to instil those beliefs within their children. So what he is saying is that the teaching of one specific religion has no place in public schools, because most kinds there aren't of the same religions, so why would they do a play about Jesus? In the Catholic school system which both Saska and I attended most of our christmas plays and things of the sort had Christian influence too them. Is it different in the states?
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Post by Divebitch on Dec 21, 2013 18:56:57 GMT -5
saskabroncowe could go back and forth with our opinions but we are not on the same page. You see Christianity through the eyes of an atheist and i see it through the eyes of a Christian. You did mention rights however. To say Jesus has no place in schools because the world is secular makes sense to you (rightfully so). However the forcing of the absense of something is equally as bad as the forcing of the presence of something. To tell me (a christian) that Jesus does not belong in school is the forcing of your belief upon mine. Just the same as me saying that Jesus should be in school which you would consider religion being forced upon you. Sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong, IMO. Your argument is so far out there, not to mention totally illogical, I wouldn't know where to begin. Let the parents and churches provide religious instruction, like when I was a kid, and the Catholics got off early from school on Wednesday do do so, while the rest of the class did extra art class. IMO, now that I look back, that is actually a rip-off on the education for everyone else. Christianity education does NOT BELONG in public schools. Sorry, but what you're saying is an outrage to me. How would you feel if 1 day a week of your kid's education was devoted to 1 hour of each of the following: Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and Hinduism, maybe Muslim too - when your kid is also falling behind in reading, writing, and math? Send those kids to religious instruction after hours, simple as that. Or teach them at home. Right. You wanna talk the talk, walk the walk. No one should feel entitled to more than that from public school, for them to do it for you. Anyone here brought up in a big city who was in elementary school the past 15 years who can tell me what they do now?
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Post by danb6177 on Dec 21, 2013 19:05:08 GMT -5
saskabroncowe could go back and forth with our opinions but we are not on the same page. You see Christianity through the eyes of an atheist and i see it through the eyes of a Christian. You did mention rights however. To say Jesus has no place in schools because the world is secular makes sense to you (rightfully so). However the forcing of the absense of something is equally as bad as the forcing of the presence of something. To tell me (a christian) that Jesus does not belong in school is the forcing of your belief upon mine. Just the same as me saying that Jesus should be in school which you would consider religion being forced upon you. I don't believe he is saying it doesn't belong in school. He is saying it doesn't belong in public school. There is a difference. I am not sure about America but in Canada we have 3 main different types of school systems, Public, Separate and French Immersion. Separate schools for the most part are catholic schools that teach those values there is a Religion class dedicated purely to religion and many of the things taught in the school are taught with a sense of "Christian values" attached to them. The Public school system doesn't deal with religion, the leave it to parents/ churches to instil those beliefs within their children. So what he is saying is that the teaching of one specific religion has no place in public schools, because most kinds there aren't of the same religions, so why would they do a play about Jesus? In the Catholic school system which both Saska and I attended most of our christmas plays and things of the sort had Christian influence too them. Is it different in the states? no not different. If you go to a church based school the things in the school will be church based. If you go to a public school things will be secular. So by your point a child in a public secular school should not speak of Jesus because the school is secular and the belief in a secular school should be non Christian? Wouldnt it be more in line with the constitution to say that a Christian child has the right to speak of whatever they choose to when concerning religion. The first amendment doesnt say the freedom of religion is to be performed behind closed doors with your own kind. So back to my point. To say that Christ is not aloud in public school is to force the atheist/agnostic/secular beliefs upon a Christian. Just the same as if it were reveserd.
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