Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 0:51:46 GMT -5
You're really going to go there in this discussion? Yes, because it is relevant. We are talking about education and too large a portion of America is locked in a fight over whether the children should be taught actual science or fairy tales. That is a problem and is one area that America is not the greatest at. By fairy tales I'm assuming you are talking about religion. And the fight is not a big one. If you can't teach religion, how can you teach history? It should be taught, not preached. But religious history IS history. Without it you are just in denial.
|
|
|
Post by saskabronco on Oct 22, 2014 0:54:09 GMT -5
Do you have a source for that info? I find it hard to believe that America keeps their stats perfectly while the rest of the world cheats on their numbers. Do you honestly believe that America is the best educated country in the world? The same country that pushes to teach fairy tales over science in many places? I think the only reason Americans think they are better than the rest is because Americans say it so often and are willing to ignore statistics when it suits them to do so. Maybe America's stats aren't perfect, but the fact is that we have federally mandated standardized tests that other nations don't conform to. And those scores can't be compared to any nation (which is almost every nation) if they don't have a compatible testing system and compatible federal law. Canada and South Korea are, off the top of my head, the only countries that are even close to that requirement. Sweden's test scores and census results, which define their statistics, aren't legitimate because they have no federal agency that checks them, and it is in Sweden's interest to produce great statistics. The burden of proof lies with the group that publishes those statistics as an argument of their merit and as a result, against the US as the worlds greatest nation, not the other way around. There is no proof for the validity of any source that shows that European educational systems turn out better test scores than Americans. And by the way, I don't give a fuck about test scores as a measuring stick. They are useless to the argument of which nation is the greatest. Steve Jobs probably would get outscored by a boy who can memorize every work of shakespeare. That doesn't invent billion dollar industries though, creativity and intellectual enterprise does. And America will never be surpassed there no matter how bad things get. My point is this: The TV show argues that America is not the greatest nation in the world based on statistics, and that is a hollow argument. Numbers do not define the whole experience of living in a country in any way. If the US isn't the world's best nation, fine. But this video does nothing to make that case. I'm not saying you are lying, but as I asked before, can you provide any sources that prove what you are saying? I am genuinely interested in reading more about the standardized testing in America vs Sweden and other places in the world and after a few google searches I have not found the info. As for America being the greatest outside of these things, I find it funny how narrow minded people can get about these things. I read in one article that America's education is better than the numbers show because they have the world's best universities, which are attended by students from all over the world. But if they have the best schools in the world and the numbers aren't reflecting that, it's because they also have so many terrible schools. So yes, America has some of the greatest things in the world, but many of those things are countered with terrible things that also come from America. The people who are willing to overlook the bad and only focus on the good that comes from America, using that as their argument for being the greatest country are tough to argue with. But when you look at all the things that America is doing terribly, like the drug war, health care, many public schools, it's prison system, environmental policies, it's current political system, etc. then it stops looking so great.
|
|
|
Post by saskabronco on Oct 22, 2014 1:02:45 GMT -5
Yes, because it is relevant. We are talking about education and too large a portion of America is locked in a fight over whether the children should be taught actual science or fairy tales. That is a problem and is one area that America is not the greatest at. If our education system is not the best why do all the foreign students come here? Come on name me one other country that has anything near Harvard, Yale, MIT, Dartmouth, etc. It's not even close. My daughter got her masters at University of Cincinnati and she was the only USA born person in her class. All the rest were mostly from Asia. (disclaimer, not the whole class just the genetic class of about fifteen) You have some good schools, but you also have a massive portion of the population that is extremely undereducated. Of course those schools are great, but there is a reason more foreign kids are there than Americans... Most of those foreign students get better primary and secondary education than Americans. And the reason so many huge schools are in America is because America lets the schools run themselves like businesses, charging absurd fees and the government profits greatly on student loan interest. It's sure as he'll not simply because Americans are smarter; they are just better at exploiting people for money so that rich people can get richer. And England has several Ivy League schools like Oxford and Cambridge, for instance.
|
|
|
Post by MarchingOn on Oct 22, 2014 1:03:19 GMT -5
Yes, because it is relevant. We are talking about education and too large a portion of America is locked in a fight over whether the children should be taught actual science or fairy tales. That is a problem and is one area that America is not the greatest at. If our education system is not the best why do all the foreign students come here? Come on name me one other country that has anything near Harvard, Yale, MIT, Dartmouth, etc. It's not even close. My daughter got her masters at University of Cincinnati and she was the only USA born person in her class. All the rest were mostly from Asia. (disclaimer, not the whole class just the genetic class of about fifteen) Cambridge University over in England is one of the best colleges in the world. But I do agree that overall, USA probably has the largest and best selection. But Saska, the USA is hardly the only country that has the problem of teaching religion in educational settings. So I don't understand why you're just calling out the United States. (although I do agree 100% that religion should not be taught in schools)
|
|
|
Post by saskabronco on Oct 22, 2014 1:06:59 GMT -5
Yes, because it is relevant. We are talking about education and too large a portion of America is locked in a fight over whether the children should be taught actual science or fairy tales. That is a problem and is one area that America is not the greatest at. By fairy tales I'm assuming you are talking about religion. And the fight is not a big one. If you can't teach religion, how can you teach history? It should be taught, not preached. But religious history IS history. Without it you are just in denial. I agree 100% that religious history should be taught, but that is not what the fight is about. Too many want to teach religion in place of science and that is just a giant step backward. Edit: Let me clarify that when I say religious history, I mean the history of the religions, meaning not theological teaching as if the religions are true, but teaching children about all the different religions of the world and their histories.
|
|
|
Post by Jindred on Oct 22, 2014 1:07:30 GMT -5
Yes, because it is relevant. We are talking about education and too large a portion of America is locked in a fight over whether the children should be taught actual science or fairy tales. That is a problem and is one area that America is not the greatest at. By fairy tales I'm assuming you are talking about religion. And the fight is not a big one. If you can't teach religion, how can you teach history? It should be taught, not preached. But religious history IS history. Without it you are just in denial. I agree with what you are saying here outside of what I have in bold. Religion is by far one of the biggest shapers of our world and I believe its history needs to be taught and learned and discussed. I also believe it needs it own class as there is so much to cover on the topic. What the class needs to be is an unbiased class that teaches all religions equally, to do so it would have to treat each as a story more than anything else. I believe that is what you are saying when religion should be taught and not preached so I believe we agree on that. Now the reason I disagree with Religious history being history is I am taking that as meaning the Bible is history, or the Koran or Torrah or the Book of the Dead is history. None of those books are proven to have any truth behind them, so to teach them as such in a place of learning I don't believe is right to do so. If we are talking religious history based on how religion has affect history as one thing, but teaching the bible as if the history is true, or the Book of the Dead or any religious scripture kind of goes against everything a school is about..
|
|
|
Post by saskabronco on Oct 22, 2014 1:12:27 GMT -5
If our education system is not the best why do all the foreign students come here? Come on name me one other country that has anything near Harvard, Yale, MIT, Dartmouth, etc. It's not even close. My daughter got her masters at University of Cincinnati and she was the only USA born person in her class. All the rest were mostly from Asia. (disclaimer, not the whole class just the genetic class of about fifteen) Cambridge University over in England is one of the best colleges in the world. But I do agree that overall, USA probably has the largest and best selection. But Saska, the USA is hardly the only country that has the problem of teaching religion in educational settings. So I don't understand why you're just calling out the United States. (although I do agree 100% that religion should not be taught in schools) This is a discussion about if America is the greatest country, so I am directing my attacks at America. Most other advanced, first world countries are not bickering about creationism being taught in place of science. Some are, but the evangelical right wing in America is one thing that is holding back a large portion of the population from being properly educated, and that is one area that I am very confident in saying America is not the greatest at. Saying America is he the greatest country in the world is a silly thing anyways, because greatness can be measured in so many different ways. I fully agree that in certain areas, America is the greatest, but the is no one country that can be actually said to be THE greatest country. That's just people beating their chests and being overly patriotic and should not be taken as a serious claim.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 1:15:48 GMT -5
My oldest daughter went to college in England. yes they have good education also. But come on guys this is not even making sense. We have a great education system. And being able to take a class in religion is a must. Even my atheist daughters took classes in that. And they loved it. It helped them learn about the world. If you don't think religions exist or have never existed you are crazy. If you don't want to learn why or what they believe you are an ostrich with your head in the sand. My kids all three of them, and my step son all have degrees and are prospering very well. I can not agree that our education system is bad. Yes there is a lot of students that will never get it. But that is the student, not the system.
My kids student loans are very manageable. My oldest paid hers off in one year with her half a million dollar salary a year at her job. And bought a million dollar house the next year. Life is good.
|
|
|
Post by Jancey on Oct 22, 2014 1:19:34 GMT -5
No schools are teaching "creationism over science" (I appreciate you saying creationism instead of fairy tale btw)...you do know people that believe in creationism also believe in science right? The only schools still teaching creationism are private schools, as far as I know.
Ftr - I don't believe religion should be taught in schools...that's for church and your home. I whole-heartedly believe what I believe, but that doesn't mean public schools should be teaching it, but they don't. I really dislike the public school system, though. But that's kind of a different topic.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 1:21:15 GMT -5
Cambridge University over in England is one of the best colleges in the world. But I do agree that overall, USA probably has the largest and best selection. But Saska, the USA is hardly the only country that has the problem of teaching religion in educational settings. So I don't understand why you're just calling out the United States. (although I do agree 100% that religion should not be taught in schools) This is a discussion about if America is the greatest country, so I am directing my attacks at America. Most other advanced, first world countries are not bickering about creationism being taught in place of science. Some are, but the evangelical right wing in America is one thing that is holding back a large portion of the population from being properly educated, and that is one area that I am very confident in saying America is not the greatest at. Saying America is he the greatest country in the world is a silly thing anyways, because greatness can be measured in so many different ways. I fully agree that in certain areas, America is the greatest, but the is no one country that can be actually said to be THE greatest country. That's just people beating their chests and being overly patriotic and should not be taken as a serious claim. Name a better one. We take in so many people from around the world and give them opportunity. I'm sure places like Sweden or so have better stats. But do they help anyone? Do they do what we do? No. They secure their borders and take care of their own. I wish we would do that. But then we would be called out by people like you about the statue of liberty. Well in my mind its time to change the slogan. I think USA has gone over and above to help the world. And no one appreciates it. They just want more.
|
|