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Post by Divebitch on Mar 30, 2015 17:55:57 GMT -5
Lemme start by saying this is not pursuant to XFinity, Truck or whatever, but may be, IDK. Y'all here know last year was my first. Anyway, it's stuff I noticed this year (just didn't happen last year) with the musical chairs C drivers filling in for A & B caliber drivers, the Busch brothers, Vickers, Larson.
And you can't help but notice how the fill-ins (David Ragan, Regan Smith, Brett Moffitt) have done so much better than they have in their own normal cars . Yikes, David Ragan finished 6th (!!!!) in the A car of Kyle Busch. Brett Moffitt doing much better in the 55 car belonging to Vickers than the 34 car of...whoever. Regan Smith too. Brings me to this...
There are a lot of 'C' (a Yahoo made deal?) or should I say lower echelon drivers that don't have a 2nd car (Kvapil whose car was stolen) or good crew. I realize this ain't NFL money, they are not under that microscope perhaps. But where is the parity? Is it an issue, does anyone care? Or all part of the game?
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Post by steelers54 on Mar 31, 2015 7:46:22 GMT -5
WHERE IS THE PARITY? Well to start with the cars are all the same for the Sprint Cup & XFinity series. The difference between the Sprint Cup cars & the XFinity cars is the horsepower which puts all teams on equal ground for each series.
Some of the smaller teams only have partial sponsorship which limit them on how many races they can run, how much if anything they can spend on research & development and what they can pay crew members. As in most of your major sports once their contracts run out some of the good crew members will go to the team/s willing to pay more for their services. Because the smaller teams are limited in the number of races they run some of the lower echelon drivers do not have a full time ride.
Hope this helps ya out a little, maybe @jeffb2865 can explain it better than I can.
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Post by Divebitch on Mar 31, 2015 11:32:05 GMT -5
WHERE IS THE PARITY? Well to start with the cars are all the same for the Sprint Cup & XFinity series. The difference between the Sprint Cup cars & the XFinity cars is the horsepower which puts all teams on equal ground for each series. Some of the smaller teams only have partial sponsorship which limit them on how many races they can run, how much if anything they can spend on research & development and what they can pay crew members. As in most of your major sports once their contracts run out some of the good crew members will go to the team/s willing to pay more for their services. Because the smaller teams are limited in the number of races they run some of the lower echelon drivers do not have a full time ride. Hope this helps ya out a little, maybe @jeffb2865 can explain it better than I can. Thanks much. But I should never have mention XFinity, etc. I said it's "not pursuant to that". The last part of what you said that I emboldened, that's the stuff I'm talking about. Yes, I can see many teams are underfunded, and can only run a few races. But the recent events just brought it home for me. Like wherein lies the integrity of a race (or entire sport for that matter) with this kind of financial inequity?!? Might be looking at it wrong, as there's no salary cap in some (most?) sports. IOW, maybe the concept of inequity doesn't degrade the integrity, it's like 'It is what it is. It's part of the sport. Good drivers works their way up, then it's synergistic in terms of gaining sponsorship, thus crew and eqpt.' And not sure about the eqpt. Is the crew all the difference? In the NFL, there is the parity of 'salary cap', even though many teams don't max out. The object should be to at least TRY to, right? In theory, you do that, and do it right, you get the better/best team possible. Seems NASCAR is totally different in that there are fewer factors involved - basically driver, crew, and $$$ for the car & backup car. Things don't (have to) change as much as say an NFL team. You can be a great driver for 20 years, you have it or you don't. I understand that some are better at certain types of tracks. But there just doesn't seem to be as many ducks you need to get in a row in such a small field of humans. Yeah, I get it it's a rich kid's sport. I probably seem a little disjointed, all over the place. IDK what to say about that. lol
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 14:39:40 GMT -5
Dont really know what you mean by is it fair Bev.
There are good drivers and there are drivers who arent as good as the best ones.
It takes talent to drive these cars at 200 miles per hour without wrecking all the time.
Some can do it,some cant.
Some can win on a regular basis,some cant.
Some got more money and resources,others dont.
Some got the good crew chiefs,others dont.
Money talks.
I can tell you right now where the talent is...
Its the Hendrick Motorsports program and the engine program and its the Gibbs team and the Penske team.
Theres only about 10 drivers that can drive the wheels off a car. Those are the drivers you want.
Put the best team with the most money and the best driver and crew chief and you got the top of the line.
In order to be like Jimmie Johnson,Kevin Harvick,Jeff Gordon,Earnhardt,Kyle Busch,Logano,Kewslowski.....you have to put a lot of time in a race car,and show that you got it.
Then you get the big opportunities to succeed.
So yes,,...If thats what you mean....Its fair.
Just my opinion...I think Brad K and Kyle Busch are the best drivers...alot like Dale Sr.
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Nathan
College Backup
If the birds are upside down, you're drunk and on the ground.
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Post by Nathan on Mar 31, 2015 16:06:31 GMT -5
Just like in everything money is key, but most also very important is having the right people in place, Hendrick and Penske have them, Roush doesn't. Roush used to be the top tier team in Cup, right up there with Hendrick, but they didn't evolve the the tech and didn't hire the right people like Hendrick continually does. Thats what makes Hendrick better, the people. Roush uses the same engines as Penske (Yates Engines) but Penske is so much faster, why? Because they have better people in the shop. Is it fair or unfair? Was Bill Belichick's goofy formation fair or unfair? It was legal, innovative, and he was just smarter. Being smarter is not an unfair advantage, its reality. In racing, far beyond other games, its more about the people and the jobs they do. Look at the history of HMS, HMS started out with no money, but Rick put the right people in place. Roush had all the money in NASCAR, but Jack didn't evolve and hire the right replacements. Some small teams can and will grow into big teams, but its all about getting the right people and bringing in the right sponsors, like Gene Haas did when Tony Stewart came in. It all comes back to people and sponsors. Its not a question of fair or unfair, but a question of smarts, utilization and determination vs the lack of said traits. Look up Ray Evernham and the Rainbow Warriors, they are the epitome of all that.
Don't think of NASCAR as a traditional sport or a typical "league", but as a business. Sports, and NASCAR more so than any, is a business. We are a cut-throat corporate sponsorship driven business.
Now then, i'm not a Dale Sr fan but I don't like comparisons. I will never agree that Bucky Kes is a great driver, me, my dad, the drunk Harvick fan behind us, and your grandmother knew what was gonna happen at TMS last year, everyone except Bucky apparently. Kyle is a great talent, and last year I began to see him morphing into a great driver, championship caliber. You have to be patient and take care of your stuff, remain calm when things aren't going right and be in position at the end. Kyle is beginning to drive like that. Bucky's an ass. Its totally different than when Earnhardt raced. My opinion, the two best drivers in racing are Kevin Harvick, and Jeff Gordon; followed closely by Jimmie Johnson, Matt Kenseth and Denny Hamlin. Then i'd say Dale Jr, Carl Edwards, and Kyle. Dale Sr wouldn't have been able to drive like he did with these cars, in this era, with these rules packages, for so many reasons I hate comparisons. (I love hating on Bucky, thanks for opening that door Jeffb, lol). But the points format is beginning to compliment that brash, drive-it-like-you-stole-it style of racing. Look at the move Newman had to make last year at Phoenix, thats not racing, thats a move a 12 year old makes on a videogame about demolition derby. But the format required it, it sucks, I hate it. I like good clean racing, youtube Jeff Gordon and Dale Jr racing in the final laps at TMS in 03, good, clean, pure racing, not wrecking. And by the way, there is a difference between using the bumper to move a driver, and wrecking them. Jeff is better at it than anyone else.
Wow I just went off on a tangent, sorry (Not really, lol).
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Post by Divebitch on Mar 31, 2015 19:50:48 GMT -5
Dont really know what you mean by is it fair Bev.There are good drivers and there are drivers who arent as good as the best ones. It takes talent to drive these cars at 200 miles per hour without wrecking all the time. Some can do it,some cant. Some can win on a regular basis,some cant. Some got more money and resources,others dont. Some got the good crew chiefs,others dont. Money talks. I can tell you right now where the talent is... Its the Hendrick Motorsports program and the engine program and its the Gibbs team and the Penske team. Theres only about 10 drivers that can drive the wheels off a car. Those are the drivers you want. Put the best team with the most money and the best driver and crew chief and you got the top of the line. In order to be like Jimmie Johnson,Kevin Harvick,Jeff Gordon,Earnhardt,Kyle Busch,Logano,Kewslowski.....you have to put a lot of time in a race car,and show that you got it. Then you get the big opportunities to succeed. So yes,,...If thats what you mean....Its fair. Just my opinion...I think Brad K and Kyle Busch are the best drivers...alot like Dale Sr. Well, I did tell ya I felt a little disjointed. Like how can ya draw any clearcut conclusions when you can't make sense of what is going on. Brad and Kyle, you gotta be kidding. See, now I might try to make sense of YOU and say aggression and killer instinct. Yeah, I understand the best team, most $, crew, etc. But it's just curious how all that stuff happens and in what order. Yeah I know it takes talent not to wreck. Seems to me though that there is more than that going into whom is given the chance. IDK. I know they pay their dues in XFin and Truck. But you look at Danica. She doesn't do that. Has she ever? Do you think at all that they think she is good for the sport, so cut some slack? Nathan - That's a very nice, meaty response. A little preoccupied and pretty tired. Just wanted to say I'll get back tomorrow.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 21:00:35 GMT -5
I think Danica started in formula one right?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2015 13:34:12 GMT -5
Yes I think Brad and Kyle are the best drivers...lol.
Put them with Hendrick and give them the best 2 crew chiefs and engine builders and they would dominate.
Best 10 drivers
1. Kyle Busch 2. Brad K 3. Kevin Harvick 4. Matt Kenseth 5. Jimmie Johnson 6. Tony Stewart 7. Jeff Gordon 8. Dale Jr 9. Carl Edwards 10. Kasey Kahne
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Post by Divebitch on Apr 1, 2015 16:09:31 GMT -5
Might be looking at it wrong, as there's no salary cap in some (most?) sports. IOW, maybe the concept of inequity doesn't degrade the integrity, it's like 'It is what it is. It's part of the sport. Good drivers works their way up, then it's synergistic in terms of gaining sponsorship, thus crew and eqpt.' And not sure about the eqpt. Is the crew all the difference? Just like in everything money is key, but most also very important is having the right people in place, Hendrick and Penske have them, Roush doesn't. Roush used to be the top tier team in Cup, right up there with Hendrick, but they didn't evolve the the tech and didn't hire the right people like Hendrick continually does. Thats what makes Hendrick better, the people. Roush uses the same engines as Penske (Yates Engines) but Penske is so much faster, why? Because they have better people in the shop. Is it fair or unfair? Being smarter is not an unfair advantage, its reality. In racing, far beyond other games, its more about the people and the jobs they do.My opinion, the two best drivers in racing are Kevin Harvick, and Jeff Gordon; followed closely by Jimmie Johnson, Matt Kenseth and Denny Hamlin. Then i'd say Dale Jr, Carl Edwards, and Kyle. Good stuff here. Sorry I deleted some which were a little muddled in my own mind to begin with. Totally agree (and better understanding now) with all you say. Bottom line, it's more a dog eat dog sport in terms of just about every aspect of it. If operating within official Nascar rules and guidelines, nothing is unfair. And the drivers, crew, owner, etc. accept that as such. Agree more with your driver assessment than Uncle Jeppers, but I could be wrong. IDK how anyone could put Kews above Harvick. Harvick came back from WAY in the back to the front in like 50 laps a few weeks ago. I didn't start him in L2 cuz of his #2 start position, and was shocked he got up there so fast.
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Nathan
College Backup
If the birds are upside down, you're drunk and on the ground.
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Post by Nathan on Apr 3, 2015 12:14:54 GMT -5
[/quote] Good stuff here. Sorry I deleted some which were a little muddled in my own mind to begin with. Totally agree (and better understanding now) with all you say. Bottom line, it's more a dog eat dog sport in terms of just about every aspect of it. If operating within official Nascar rules and guidelines, nothing is unfair. And the drivers, crew, owner, etc. accept that as such.
Agree more with your driver assessment than Uncle Jeppers, but I could be wrong. IDK how anyone could put Kews above Harvick. Harvick came back from WAY in the back to the front in like 50 laps a few weeks ago. I didn't start him in L2 cuz of his #2 start position, and was shocked he got up there so fast. [/quote] You're not wrong, at all.
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