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Post by Juggs on Jul 29, 2015 20:40:32 GMT -5
So if this gets hung up in court, what happens to the suspension? Does Brady get to play until the court thing is decided? And if so, what happens if the court decides the NFL has the right to the suspension? What if that happens towards the end of the season or during playoffs? Could end up worse for the Patriots right? NFL PA has asked for an injunction(which is almost guaranteed Not at all. A suspension falls under a time/place/manner judgement. Injunctions are rare at best because the injunction modifies the punishment itself, which is contrary to the point of an injunction. Scrutiny against this decision would be much more thorough than a fine or other non-chronological punishment. from Cornell law: "There is a balancing test that courts typically employ in determining whether to issue an injunction. The defendant's 5th Amendment due process rights are weighed (heavily) against the possibility of the defendant becoming judgment-proof, and the immediacy of the harm allegedly done to the plaintiff (i.e., how badly does the plaintiff need the injunction). When it is possible, the defendant must always be put on notice of the injunction hearing, and the duration of the injunction is typically as temporary as possible. Additionally, in many jurisdictions, plaintiffs demanding an injunction are required to post a bond." Keep in mind that the plantiff is actually the NFLPA in the suit in question, and Goodell is the defendant. His process right (here it would be interpreted as affirmation of a contract), would be weighed "heavily" (meaning with preference) against the possibility of the immediacy of the harm done to the plaintiff. In this case, there is no "immediacy of the harm done to the plaintiff" since Goodell's decision is not guilty until proven of being so. If Brady were the defendant in civil court, the burden would be on Goodell to show immediacy, but here it is clearly on Brady, and that means that the injunction ruling leans heavily in favor of Goodell from the start. Obviously the immediate harm done to Brady is that he may be suspended wrongly before the suit, however, that logic only applies if the court is currently seeing Brady as the defendant. Currently, he is the plaintiff, and as such, there is no immediate threat of him being "wrongly" banned in the eyes of the court. An injunction is in my opinion, highly unlikely. My education on the matter isn't nearly complete though, and I may be underestimating the plaintiff or even disregarding a key point. Still, to say that an injunction is nearly guaranteed for the plaintiff shows a television-style understanding of how injunctions work.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 20:40:53 GMT -5
7-2 Whooo hooo.
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Post by Juggs on Jul 29, 2015 20:49:12 GMT -5
If nothing changed, then why would he be granted an appeal? all players get an appeal. it's basically a right. a federal court won't even hear a case till all forms of appeals and such have been exhausted. and the appeal went pretty good for brady in the end. sounds bad but goodall gave him a little more ammo by presiding over it. i know the cba gives him the right but the first thing his lawyers are gonna seize on is bias and if they're good there is a way. rice and peterson won in court. brady has a great chance Uh, sorry totally wrong choice of words on my part. I meant, "why would he win the appeal?" Obviously the appeal had already been granted a long time ago. In fact, appeals in general and in the NFL system aren't really "granted" at all, they're mostly just by default. edit: Rice won on double-jeopardy, which was a massive oversight by the league and an easy win that's irrelevant to this case. I'm not as familiar with Peterson, but reading about it just now, Peterson won because the judge ruled the Goodell refused to listen to the NFLPA's well constructed argument that the league punished Peterson retroactively under the previous domestic violence policy, and that ruling (by the feds) also seems obvious and is totally irrelevant to this case. The fact that Peterson and Rice won is irrelevant to this. Those cases were softballs.
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Post by packdog on Jul 30, 2015 3:16:49 GMT -5
The fact that Peterson and Rice won is irrelevant to this. Those cases were softballs. i'll give ya that they had a better case but it's not irrelevant. just examples of how players win in court despite what actually happened or goodall's authoritative stance. patskid mentioned the bounty gate players and others like the williams wall fought the nfl with success in court. brady's case is not a softball though and it will be tougher to convince a judge but if a ruling is made to hear it in court that is half the battle again, it will about procedure and not deflategate. that opens up some avenues for brady. right off the bat you got bias (goodall hearing appeal), assumption (nfl can't prove what was on the phone and they will have to prove brady is lying), and possibly the precedent of past equipment violations (way unfair for brady in comparison) brady doesn't have to do spit. it will be a pain in the ass to somehow prove brady destroyed his phone on purpose and not because he is a celebrity and wanted a new shiny. like the great denzel once said...it's not what ya know, it's what ya can prove
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Post by EagleDomiKnation on Jul 30, 2015 8:47:50 GMT -5
The NFL PA has filed a suit in the state of Minnesota. The case will be reviewed by Judge Richard H. Kyle, although the expectation is that he will recuse himself and Judge David Doty will review the case. The NFL filed the case in New York with the intention of avoiding Judge David Doty who has a long history of being very player friendly. Ultimately the NFL PA will have good reasoning to keep the case in Minnesota considering Doty also has a lot of experience with these cases, while there is not one New York judge who can say the same. The NFL will likely argued it filed first and arbitration was in New York, but their isnt much of a precedent here. The main allegations of the suit are: 1. No advance notice of punishment 2. Not fair and consistent punishment 3. Unfair appeal 4. Goodell partial Judge has moved the case to Manhattan, where the NFL is almost always favored over the NFLPA... Mike N Mike saying that this is very bad for Brady....
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Post by patriotsk1d on Jul 30, 2015 22:59:09 GMT -5
I think I will just give daily updates( not using ESPN's agenda) to keep everyone honest, although everyone is and should be entitled to their own opinion. Chris Mortenson, the guy who overblew this entire thing with a false report stating 11 of the 12 footballs were 2.5 PSI under the legal limit(not even remotely true) will be on the Dennis and Callahan show tomorrow morning to discuss his initial report. While I have never been a fan of Mortenson I doubt he fabricated the original report and think it is far more likely one of the NFL's higher up leaked false information to him. Dennis and Callahan will not let him off easy. Still there is a lot of hype regarding this interview and it wouldnt shock me if Mortenson or ESPN pulls the plug on it in the next few hours. cityofchampsToo bad your fun is about to run out. Your huge deal about the broken cell phone is looking dumber and dumber every day. Another story that doesnt fit your agenda: www.wired.com/2015/07/even-tom-brady-smash-phone-itd-make-zero-sense/?mbid=social_twitterHere is a quote from the Wells report: "We don't even know if a violation occurred, but if one did, we "think" we know who probably did it." Sounds very conclusive. JuggsGoing to have to agree after further research than an injunction is not by any means a guarantee. However judge Berman is expected to expedite this case with a ruling in mid to late August, so it is unlikely to even matter. And this is not directed at any one person, but lets get a couple of facts straight: 1. No player in the history of the league has ever been suspended for not cooperating with an investigation. I have heard this used as the "real" reasoning for Brady's suspension but it has never applied in the history of the league and its not as if Brady is the first player to ever not cooperate with an investigation(which according to Ted Wells Brady did fully cooperate). 2. So that being said this suspension should fully be based on the incident which is more probably than not having knowledge of an equipment violation. So how is that worthy of any suspension? 3. The cell phone is completely irrelevant whether or not it was broken intentionally like reported by Stephen A Smith or whether Brady simply just got a new phone because his old one broke. The NFL doesnt even have the right to request Brady turns over his phone. So whether or not the phone had anything on it is irrelevant because the NFL didnt have the right to ask for that much less use it against him regardless.
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Post by patriotsk1d on Jul 30, 2015 23:01:27 GMT -5
The NFL PA has filed a suit in the state of Minnesota. The case will be reviewed by Judge Richard H. Kyle, although the expectation is that he will recuse himself and Judge David Doty will review the case. The NFL filed the case in New York with the intention of avoiding Judge David Doty who has a long history of being very player friendly. Ultimately the NFL PA will have good reasoning to keep the case in Minnesota considering Doty also has a lot of experience with these cases, while there is not one New York judge who can say the same. The NFL will likely argued it filed first and arbitration was in New York, but their isnt much of a precedent here. The main allegations of the suit are: 1. No advance notice of punishment 2. Not fair and consistent punishment 3. Unfair appeal 4. Goodell partial Judge has moved the case to Manhattan, where the NFL is almost always favored over the NFLPA... Mike N Mike saying that this is very bad for Brady.... NFL has no "favored location" its just that Judge Doty has been unfavorable to the NFL, which wouldnt have mattered anyways since it wasnt assigned to Doty. I like listening to Mike and Mike but those guys have virtually no legal insight and their network has clearly had an agenda since day one. The reality is this is going to be the first form of a neutral review of this case, in which the NFL is suspending Brady because it is more probable than not he had knowledge of an equipment violation.
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Post by patriotsk1d on Jul 30, 2015 23:02:30 GMT -5
Question: Were the Colts footballs ever checked?
Mortenson Answer: Yes, they were within regulation and remained within regulation
Even a very clearly biased Ted Wells disagreed, yet ESPN still went with this for weeks.
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Post by Juggs on Jul 31, 2015 0:43:12 GMT -5
patriotsk1d the point of the appeal was for Brady to bring forward new evidence. If that's the case, the phone did matter, since he failed to bring it in as new evidence. The NFL isn't punishing him for braking the phone. They just kept his punishment the same since without the phone, the only remaining evidence was the circumstantial texts from the Pats employees phone that mention Brady. The evidence floor remained where it was before the appeal (although Brady claims he supplied additional testimony that would prove him not guilty, I haven't heard any personally.) If the evidence viewed by the league didn't change, I don't see why the punishment would have. Also, you keep calling this an equipment violation. That's pretty misleading. The suspension was for conduct detrimental to the integrity of the game, AKA cheating. The point is that someone on the Patriots tried to something that gave them an advantage that, as far as I know, seems to be against the rules. I will admit that there is so much misinformation flowing from all sides, not the least of which seems to be Tom Brady himself, I've long since stopped caring about whether or not Brady deserves punishment or whether or not the league overstepped. I just don't care anymore. I want football to come back and to root for the Titans and our new quarterback, and if Brady is playing or otherwise, I don't give a shit. I'm going to see him in Foxboro slobberknock my team in week 15 or so, so the suspension is irrelevant. I suppose I should be hoping for such a ridiculous injunction that the Titans Pats game is without Brady, to improve my teams chances. It seems like a long shot among long shots though.
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Post by patriotsk1d on Jul 31, 2015 0:58:40 GMT -5
patriotsk1d the point of the appeal was for Brady to bring forward new evidence. If that's the case, the phone did matter, since he failed to bring it in as new evidence. The NFL isn't punishing him for braking the phone. They just kept his punishment the same since without the phone, the only remaining evidence was the circumstantial texts from the Pats employees phone that mention Brady. The evidence floor remained where it was before the appeal (although Brady claims he supplied additional testimony that would prove him not guilty, I haven't heard any personally.) If the evidence viewed by the league didn't change, I don't see why the punishment would have. Also, you keep calling this an equipment violation. That's pretty misleading. The suspension was for conduct detrimental to the integrity of the game, AKA cheating. The point is that someone on the Patriots tried to something that gave them an advantage that, as far as I know, seems to be against the rules. I will admit that there is so much misinformation flowing from all sides, not the least of which seems to be Tom Brady himself, I've long since stopped caring about whether or not Brady deserves punishment or whether or not the league overstepped. I just don't care anymore. I want football to come back and to root for the Titans and our new quarterback, and if Brady is playing or otherwise, I don't give a shit. I'm going to see him in Foxboro slobberknock my team in week 15 or so, so the suspension is irrelevant. I suppose I should be hoping for such a ridiculous injunction that the Titans Pats game is without Brady, to improve my teams chances. It seems like a long shot among long shots though. Right and the NFL suspended Brady under a policy that was meant for club violations, not player violations. You could argue almost any rules violation also goes against the integrity of the league or rules or whatever. Look if a violation did occur(and no there isnt even close to conclusive evidence of that) then Brady probably was aware, but in that case multiple players on the team would also more probably than not be aware and yet no one else was suspended. And this is not simply an appeal. Brady was wrongly disciplined by the NFL. They violated several portions of the CBA and the courts will be looking at that more than anything else. This quote is word for word from the Wells report: "We don't even know if a violation occurred, but if one did, we "think" we know who probably did it." How can anyone club or player receive any form of discipline if the 5 million dollar, 2 month report wasnt even sure if a violation occurred? The right thing for the NFL to do would be to revoke any current discipline until further research regarding ball PSI is done. If they can determine with 100 percent certainty that the only way for footballs to lose about less than 1 PSI in air pressure is result of tampering then fine they can go ahead with the penalties, but their is tons of science that disagrees with that and it would be unfair to at least not run their own tests next season. But of course that wont happen.
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