Nathan
College Backup
If the birds are upside down, you're drunk and on the ground.
Posts: 372
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Post by Nathan on May 1, 2015 14:27:42 GMT -5
Which format do y'all prefer, this new Elimination Chase? The original Chase? Or the classic points system? Which one and why?
In my opinion I prefer the classic points because this is Motorsports, its not like any other sports in many facets, namely that everybody competes against everybody each week (thus no need for "playoffs") and the fact that variables that are out of the drivers/teams hands are so much more prevalent and play a much bigger role in the outcomes than in any other sport. But I will say that the Elimination Chase is better than the original because in this format we have actually "playoff excitement" (Which really shouldn't be in motorsports) as opposed to just resetting the points after 26 races for no apparent reason. There's an actual difference in the racing and intensity, there wasn't that in the original, it was just; "Ok people, we're shaking up the points right now" says Brian France. "But why?" say drivers (sans JJ). BF- "I wanna compete head-to-head with the NFL because I have an NFL complex. So we need a playoff!"
Anyway I like the Classic points for two more reasons, first reason is that the classic points gave a clear-cut, uncontested true Champion for each SEASON. Nobody got robbed because of stupid circumstance, and I spell stupid circumstance K-E-S-E-L-O-W-S-K-I. The second reason is simple, most passionate, most telling and most important; I'm a Jeff Gordon fan.
Thoughts?
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Post by Divebitch on May 1, 2015 16:28:08 GMT -5
Well, just answering cuz I'm here and we are a small group. But being that last year was my first, I am obviously least qualified to answer. That said, can't hurt to try. lol I like the points idea. To take an example to extremes, it is ludicrous for someone who has 10 top 5s and 20 top 10 finishes to lose to someone who got lucky 1 time with a win, with a record of 2 top 5s and 5 top 10s.
Seems like what they're doing now is a hybrib/compromise between wins and pts? But maybe the pts are undervalued. IRDK.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 18:30:13 GMT -5
Classic point system, of course, for all the reasons you have said.
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Post by steelers54 on May 2, 2015 11:50:03 GMT -5
Nathan Since you're making the reference to the NFL. The Classic: In it's day it was the only thing they had an it served it's purpose just like in the old days of the NFL with run on 1st down, run on 2nd down, run on 3rd down it became boring and needed to change. Some of the Championships were close between the top 2 or 3 drivers in others the top driver had built such a lead over the others all he had to do was finish the last couple races an be crowned the Champion. The Original Chase: Was like the forward pass being introduced in the NFL, it got the fans excited and added an element of drama. It may not have been the best but it was a start, you could no longer rely on just points you had to get some wins in order to win a Championship now. With the new format resetting the points was done to show what you did the first 26 races to get into the Chase and how you did in the last 10 races of the Chase. Elimination Chase: Is a combination of the 2 previous formats with a little more focus on wins, it is better then what they had and can still be tweaked if need be. It has become wide open giving all teams & drivers a chance to make the Chase. In order to win in each round an advance you need to win first an foremost but you possibly could still advance based on points if you can finish in the top 5 in the races for that round . Yes some may get robbed because of stupid circumstances but you can't expect to make it into the final round based on dumb luck alone. In most cases by the final round the creme has risen to the top an any of the top 4 drivers can win the Championship. NASCAR is a business and that business is to make MONEY plain & simple. The sponsors help give the teams money to race but it's the Fans that make the money for NASCAR and the drivers so they can do what they love racing. I like the Elimination Chase it has added more excitement an drama along with bringing more fans into the sport,it keeps you coming back for more to see who will win it all and take home the Championship.
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Nathan
College Backup
If the birds are upside down, you're drunk and on the ground.
Posts: 372
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Post by Nathan on May 2, 2015 12:32:33 GMT -5
Nathan Since you're making the reference to the NFL. The Classic: In it's day it was the only thing they had an it served it's purpose just like in the old days of the NFL with run on 1st down, run on 2nd down, run on 3rd down it became boring and needed to change. Some of the Championships were close between the top 2 or 3 drivers in others the top driver had built such a lead over the others all he had to do was finish the last couple races an be crowned the Champion. The Original Chase: Was like the forward pass being introduced in the NFL, it got the fans excited and added an element of drama. It may not have been the best but it was a start, you could no longer rely on just points you had to get some wins in order to win a Championship now. With the new format resetting the points was done to show what you did the first 26 races to get into the Chase and how you did in the last 10 races of the Chase. Elimination Chase: Is a combination of the 2 previous formats with a little more focus on wins, it is better then what they had and can still be tweaked if need be. It has become wide open giving all teams & drivers a chance to make the Chase. In order to win in each round an advance you need to win first an foremost but you possibly could still advance based on points if you can finish in the top 5 in the races for that round . Yes some may get robbed because of stupid circumstances but you can't expect to make it into the final round based on dumb luck alone. In most cases by the final round the creme has risen to the top an any of the top 4 drivers can win the Championship. NASCAR is a business and that business is to make MONEY plain & simple. The sponsors help give the teams money to race but it's the Fans that make the money for NASCAR and the drivers so they can do what they love racing. I like the Elimination Chase it has added more excitement an drama along with bringing more fans into the sport,it keeps you coming back for more to see who will win it all and take home the Championship. Interesting comparisons, but the introduction of the forward pass and the basic evolution of play in football didn't harm the integrity of the sport, nor did it affect the outcome of the championship run, by most appearances. Someone starts doing it, everyone else catches on, nature of all stick and ball games. The better NFL-NASCAR comparison would be either when the NFL introduced a playoff format in 1960 (I believe) or the NFL-AFL competition, or even the introduction of the wild-card. But none of them have the same effect as the NASCAR formats because its just two different sports/styles. I wasn't making any comparisons, just pointing out that BF has a well-known NFL complex. Yes NASCAR is a business, all sports are businesses in fact. The highest of NASCAR's popularity was the early 2000's. Ratings/ticket sales began their decline around 2006, coincidence? Between 2006 and 2013 ratings either dropped or remained steady, there was absolutely no increase in any measurable form of popularity after the Chase was introduced. Popularity dropped 26% since 2005. The height of NASCAR's popularity was 2001-2004. 2005 was pretty steady and then 2006 it began to drop. The only way NASCAR has increased in measures since any Chase form was introduced is in social media mentions, but social media is still a new form of measuring popularity, well-tested, but not perfectly reliable for true fan interest, especially in NASCAR. Plus, social media mentions on the rise is obvious for 2 reasons outside of the on-track. First, more and more people are using social media is various forms, so its normal that NASCAR mentions would go up. Secondly, NASCAR has really upped the ante on social media, their prowess has significantly increased so its only natural that the mentions go up as well. Basically the answer to my question comes down to this. Do you prefer excitement and drama? Or a season-long performance based true Champion? Me, i'll take the deserving, well-earned, undisputed Champion of the season. I'm not a dramatic, soap opera on wheels kinda guy, lol.
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Post by steelers54 on May 2, 2015 19:15:48 GMT -5
Nathan Since you're making the reference to the NFL. The Classic: In it's day it was the only thing they had an it served it's purpose just like in the old days of the NFL with run on 1st down, run on 2nd down, run on 3rd down it became boring and needed to change. Some of the Championships were close between the top 2 or 3 drivers in others the top driver had built such a lead over the others all he had to do was finish the last couple races an be crowned the Champion. The Original Chase: Was like the forward pass being introduced in the NFL, it got the fans excited and added an element of drama. It may not have been the best but it was a start, you could no longer rely on just points you had to get some wins in order to win a Championship now. With the new format resetting the points was done to show what you did the first 26 races to get into the Chase and how you did in the last 10 races of the Chase. Elimination Chase: Is a combination of the 2 previous formats with a little more focus on wins, it is better then what they had and can still be tweaked if need be. It has become wide open giving all teams & drivers a chance to make the Chase. In order to win in each round an advance you need to win first an foremost but you possibly could still advance based on points if you can finish in the top 5 in the races for that round . Yes some may get robbed because of stupid circumstances but you can't expect to make it into the final round based on dumb luck alone. In most cases by the final round the creme has risen to the top an any of the top 4 drivers can win the Championship. NASCAR is a business and that business is to make MONEY plain & simple. The sponsors help give the teams money to race but it's the Fans that make the money for NASCAR and the drivers so they can do what they love racing. I like the Elimination Chase it has added more excitement an drama along with bringing more fans into the sport,it keeps you coming back for more to see who will win it all and take home the Championship. Interesting comparisons, but the introduction of the forward pass and the basic evolution of play in football didn't harm the integrity of the sport, nor did it affect the outcome of the championship run, by most appearances. Someone starts doing it, everyone else catches on, nature of all stick and ball games. The better NFL-NASCAR comparison would be either when the NFL introduced a playoff format in 1960 (I believe) or the NFL-AFL competition, or even the introduction of the wild-card. But none of them have the same effect as the NASCAR formats because its just two different sports/styles. I wasn't making any comparisons, just pointing out that BF has a well-known NFL complex.
Yes NASCAR is a business, all sports are businesses in fact. The highest of NASCAR's popularity was the early 2000's. Ratings/ticket sales began their decline around 2006, coincidence? Between 2006 and 2013 ratings either dropped or remained steady, there was absolutely no increase in any measurable form of popularity after the Chase was introduced. Popularity dropped 26% since 2005. The height of NASCAR's popularity was 2001-2004. 2005 was pretty steady and then 2006 it began to drop. The only way NASCAR has increased in measures since any Chase form was introduced is in social media mentions, but social media is still a new form of measuring popularity, well-tested, but not perfectly reliable for true fan interest, especially in NASCAR. Plus, social media mentions on the rise is obvious for 2 reasons outside of the on-track. First, more and more people are using social media is various forms, so its normal that NASCAR mentions would go up. Secondly, NASCAR has really upped the ante on social media, their prowess has significantly increased so its only natural that the mentions go up as well. Basically the answer to my question comes down to this. Do you prefer excitement and drama? Or a season-long performance based true Champion? Me, i'll take the deserving, well-earned, undisputed Champion of the season. I'm not a dramatic, soap opera on wheels kinda guy, lol. Whatever,yeah those maybe a better comparison but it was the first thing that popped into my head. I like the Old School way somethings are done as much as anyone else but times have changed and you need to be able to adjust an change with the current times or get left out & left behind. Don't get your panties in a bunch just because I didn't agree with your way of thinking as @jeffb2865 & Divebitch did. With how this season has started out if it continues you may get a little of everything. Never said I prefer excitement and drama, I said it adds excitement and drama in the present format.
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Nathan
College Backup
If the birds are upside down, you're drunk and on the ground.
Posts: 372
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Post by Nathan on May 2, 2015 20:44:40 GMT -5
Interesting comparisons, but the introduction of the forward pass and the basic evolution of play in football didn't harm the integrity of the sport, nor did it affect the outcome of the championship run, by most appearances. Someone starts doing it, everyone else catches on, nature of all stick and ball games. The better NFL-NASCAR comparison would be either when the NFL introduced a playoff format in 1960 (I believe) or the NFL-AFL competition, or even the introduction of the wild-card. But none of them have the same effect as the NASCAR formats because its just two different sports/styles. I wasn't making any comparisons, just pointing out that BF has a well-known NFL complex.
Yes NASCAR is a business, all sports are businesses in fact. The highest of NASCAR's popularity was the early 2000's. Ratings/ticket sales began their decline around 2006, coincidence? Between 2006 and 2013 ratings either dropped or remained steady, there was absolutely no increase in any measurable form of popularity after the Chase was introduced. Popularity dropped 26% since 2005. The height of NASCAR's popularity was 2001-2004. 2005 was pretty steady and then 2006 it began to drop. The only way NASCAR has increased in measures since any Chase form was introduced is in social media mentions, but social media is still a new form of measuring popularity, well-tested, but not perfectly reliable for true fan interest, especially in NASCAR. Plus, social media mentions on the rise is obvious for 2 reasons outside of the on-track. First, more and more people are using social media is various forms, so its normal that NASCAR mentions would go up. Secondly, NASCAR has really upped the ante on social media, their prowess has significantly increased so its only natural that the mentions go up as well. Basically the answer to my question comes down to this. Do you prefer excitement and drama? Or a season-long performance based true Champion? Me, i'll take the deserving, well-earned, undisputed Champion of the season. I'm not a dramatic, soap opera on wheels kinda guy, lol. Whatever,yeah those maybe a better comparison but it was the first thing that popped into my head. I like the Old School way somethings are done as much as anyone else but times have changed and you need to be able to adjust an change with the current times or get left out & left behind. Don't get your panties in a bunch just because I didn't agree with your way of thinking as @jeffb2865 & Divebitch did. With how this season has started out if it continues you may get a little of everything. Never said I prefer excitement and drama, I said it adds excitement and drama in the present format. I'm just arguing my opinion, don't take it personally. Never said that you said "I prefer excitement and drama." If I use your words in my response I will quote you. "Don't get your panties in a bunch just because I didn't agree with your way of thinking as @jeffb2865 & Divebitch did." Just because I respond to someone disagreeing with my perspective doesn't mean i'm upset. It means that i'm welcoming the discussion. No offense, but I could honestly care less if you or anyone else disagrees with me on anything. If I pose a question like I did then I expect disagreement, then I can debate the varying positions, thats how I have fun. Nobody should get upset if someone should disagree, especially over something as trivial as sports. Now then you are correct that times change and sports need to change and adapt so they don't get left behind, but as I said, the Chase has had no positive bearing on NASCAR, the numbers simple don't back it up. But what it does give us is debatable champions. Yes, it gives more excitement to the championship battle. Personally, i've never cared about whether or not a points battle is exciting, I want true, season-long Champions. Thats my position. NASCAR has always said the Chase has been great because it has added so much more intensity and drama, which it has, no doubt. But that stance is only valid under the ASSUMPTION that intensity, drama and "Game 7 moments" is all fans want. NASCAR has never offered cold hard numbers to back it up, only a fact that's under an assumption. Its a hollow argument. The cold hard numbers say that it has had little to no positive impact. So now, the answer to my question comes down to personal preference, nobody is factually right, nobody is factually wrong. The genesis of any answer to my question is personal preference. Do you like what we had last year, or pre-2004? There-in lies the varying answers.
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Post by steelers54 on May 3, 2015 9:30:04 GMT -5
Nathan I don't take it personal and not upset, did I over react yes but let me explain why. Don't know how much of the threads you read in here but there have been ones who have posted stuff and wait until the first person that either disagrees with what they have said or didn't word it how they wanted to hear/see the answer.Then they start pressing and asking that person over & over the same question until they get the answer they want or the other person quits responding. When I started getting interested in Nascar the Classic System was how they determined the Champion and I had no problem with it. It was all there was at the time. So when they changed to the Original Chase format I was not sure at first but accepted it because it was now the new format like it or not. So now we have the new Elimination Chase, like it or not it is the format they now use to determine the Championship. I can understand why they expanded the number of drivers making Chase because some of the top drivers on the bubble were left out and people want to see the stars of the sport racing not the lower tier drivers. I can understand your feelings about wanting an undisputed Champion the only way that's going to happen is if they change back to the Classic system of crowning a Champion and I don't see that happening any time soon. As for B.France he may be the head of Nascar and have a vision of what & where he like to see the sport go. But he doesn't just wake up one morning an say I got some great ideas and I'm going to change how the sport is run. You know as well as I do that even if we don't see them there are plenty of people in the background who put in some long hours doing research, before any whole sale changes are made. Yes the sport is different then any other and I don't think B.F. is trying to turn NASCAR into the NFL. Enjoy and embrace it cause it's all we got at this point like it or not..
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Nathan
College Backup
If the birds are upside down, you're drunk and on the ground.
Posts: 372
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Post by Nathan on May 3, 2015 21:18:35 GMT -5
Nathan I don't take it personal and not upset, did I over react yes but let me explain why. Don't know how much of the threads you read in here but there have been ones who have posted stuff and wait until the first person that either disagrees with what they have said or didn't word it how they wanted to hear/see the answer.Then they start pressing and asking that person over & over the same question until they get the answer they want or the other person quits responding. When I started getting interested in Nascar the Classic System was how they determined the Champion and I had no problem with it. It was all there was at the time. So when they changed to the Original Chase format I was not sure at first but accepted it because it was now the new format like it or not. So now we have the new Elimination Chase, like it or not it is the format they now use to determine the Championship. I can understand why they expanded the number of drivers making Chase because some of the top drivers on the bubble were left out and people want to see the stars of the sport racing not the lower tier drivers. I can understand your feelings about wanting an undisputed Champion the only way that's going to happen is if they change back to the Classic system of crowning a Champion and I don't see that happening any time soon. As for B.France he may be the head of Nascar and have a vision of what & where he like to see the sport go. But he doesn't just wake up one morning an say I got some great ideas and I'm going to change how the sport is run. You know as well as I do that even if we don't see them there are plenty of people in the background who put in some long hours doing research, before any whole sale changes are made. Yes the sport is different then any other and I don't think B.F. is trying to turn NASCAR into the NFL. Enjoy and embrace it cause it's all we got at this point like it or not.. Yeah I don't go to any other threads. I was an original member but online forums aren't really my cup of tea (Not sure why I got a founding invite, come to think of it), I'm just here for the Fantasy NASCAR and talking about racing. "...but there have been ones who have posted stuff and wait until the first person that either disagrees with what they have said or didn't word it how they wanted to hear/see the answer." Not that I know what anyone else here says and does but what's the point in saying 'Thanks for agreeing with me dive and Jeffb' About pressing the question to get a different answer, I have a limit of 3. If I don't get an answer to a question then i'll ask it 3 times in differing ways and move on. Anybody that asks the same question 3+ times in the same exact way is dumb and annoying, hahaha. Really the reason I responded to your specific comment is because you're literally the only fan I know who said they like the Chase. I wanna know your perspective more because I don't share it and no one that I know does either. So without pressing you for your opinion i'm still trapped in an bubble. Basically i'm a person that wants to know all sides and perspectives on most everything. It's how we become well rounded, informed people. "I can understand your feelings about wanting an undisputed Champion the only way that's going to happen is if they change back to the Classic system of crowning a Champion and I don't see that happening any time soon."--- Amen, correcto; and damnit, lol. "Enjoy and embrace it cause it's all we got at this point like it or not." For me, and I said this after the Phoenix race last year, NASCAR can go ahead and crown whoever they want as Champion, there's no valid historical comparisons anymore so slap a sticker on his ass and lets go on to Daytona. I'm pretty much done with the championship. I accept the reality of it, but I don't like it. I'm a racing fanatic and a motorhead so I just enjoy the racing now and honestly when Jeff retires at the end of the year i'll care about race results so much less (Kinda sad, I know) than anyone. I've been a JG fan since I was in a crib watching races with my dad. I've been the biggest Jeff fan for his whole career and he's been my whole childhood and beyond to where I am now. For many years my mood on Mon thru Thurs was dependent on how Jeff did the previous Sunday. Nobody's gonna replace that. Which actually begs a better and more relevant question, How will Jeff's impending retirement (And Jr and Tony aren't real far behind, especially Tony) affect NASCAR?
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Post by steelers54 on May 4, 2015 8:03:21 GMT -5
Growing up in Pennsylvania I really wasn't exposed to racing and didn't follow the sport much at all. That changed when the company I worked for moved down south an I got the chance to transfer with it. My first real experience with racing started when my church started to take the young kids to the spring race down at The Lady in Black for the Busch Series. Took just one time going to a live race an I was hooked, the roar of those engines the smell of fuel and burning rubber,what a rush. Used to get a lot of slack from some people at church for liking Jeff Gordon (my name is also Jeff)he was one of my favorite drivers. Now on to your question, "How will Jeff's impending retirement (And JR and Tony)affect Nascar?" Harking back to the days of the Rainbow Warriors Jeff will sorely be missed. When he came on to the scene he wasn't thought of very highly by some of the veteran drivers or fans for that matter. They all soon found out he had more then just a pretty boy face, man could he drive. He turned NASCAR upside down and quickly earned the respect of the older more established drivers,he didn't back down and wouldn't be intimidated. Jeff put his stamp on NASCAR like no other driver before him and will be a shoe in for the Hall of Fame. Tony Stewart's (Smoke) retirement won't affect NASCAR all that much, ever since he's had multiple surgeries to his leg and being involved in the death of that driver Tony hasn't been the same. I'm sure he will be in the Hall of Fame along side Gordon. Sure he could race with the best of them but I think his legacy will be more of a bad boy image then anything else. Tony liked it as long as he was the one dishing it out but always seems to cry when he's on the receiving end of it. Dale Earnhardt Jr.'s retirement will have the biggest impact on NASCAR because of the deep rooted history the Earnhardt's have in NASCAR. I felt bad for Jr when his dad died and thought he should have been the one to take over D.E.I. but in the long run it was the best thing that could have happened and gave him the chance to over come the shadow of his father. I think Jr will drive as long as he has the ambition that drives him and as long as he's having fun doing what he loves doing racin'. Even though some of my favorite drivers will retire that will not lessen the love I have for the sport. There's some good young drivers and there's some up an coming drivers who have yet to leave their legacy on NASCAR. It will be interesting to watch and see how that all pans out. You've got racing in your blood and your interest will be rekindled when some young driver catches your attention.
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