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Post by awesomeace on Oct 21, 2014 10:18:25 GMT -5
I looked up if the statistics were accurate and I found that they are very close, but I imagine they changed slightly because it's been a couple of years. You are right - America is still a great place to live in comparatively, but we are spiraling in the wrong direction. They're accurate only until you consider who moderates those statistics. In education, we test everyone. For standardized tests in the EU, they only test rich private school white kids. Minorities and the poor have a habit of "losing" their tests, while the USA has laws that require we submit every test to be considered. Life expectency, poverty and many other issues are the same. We count the "undesirable" people in our censuses and bring them in with open arms to the country, before you even consider problems with immigration. I think it makes america great that we take in people of all backgrounds, even if they weaken our standardized tests and life expectancy rates. Every country that beats us (with a few exceptions in Asia) are really only beating us in racism and corruption. Canada?
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Post by saskabronco on Oct 21, 2014 10:39:03 GMT -5
I looked up if the statistics were accurate and I found that they are very close, but I imagine they changed slightly because it's been a couple of years. You are right - America is still a great place to live in comparatively, but we are spiraling in the wrong direction. They're accurate only until you consider who moderates those statistics. In education, we test everyone. For standardized tests in the EU, they only test rich private school white kids. Minorities and the poor have a habit of "losing" their tests, while the USA has laws that require we submit every test to be considered. Life expectency, poverty and many other issues are the same. We count the "undesirable" people in our censuses and bring them in with open arms to the country, before you even consider problems with immigration. I think it makes america great that we take in people of all backgrounds, even if they weaken our standardized tests and life expectancy rates. Every country that beats us (with a few exceptions in Asia) are really only beating us in racism and corruption. Do you have a source for that info? I find it hard to believe that America keeps their stats perfectly while the rest of the world cheats on their numbers. Do you honestly believe that America is the best educated country in the world? The same country that pushes to teach fairy tales over science in many places? I think the only reason Americans think they are better than the rest is because Americans say it so often and are willing to ignore statistics when it suits them to do so.
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Post by Jancey on Oct 21, 2014 11:33:56 GMT -5
Do you honestly believe that America is the best educated country in the world? The same country that pushes to teach fairy tales over science in many places? You're really going to go there in this discussion?
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Post by Juggs on Oct 21, 2014 12:14:10 GMT -5
They're accurate only until you consider who moderates those statistics. In education, we test everyone. For standardized tests in the EU, they only test rich private school white kids. Minorities and the poor have a habit of "losing" their tests, while the USA has laws that require we submit every test to be considered. Life expectency, poverty and many other issues are the same. We count the "undesirable" people in our censuses and bring them in with open arms to the country, before you even consider problems with immigration. I think it makes america great that we take in people of all backgrounds, even if they weaken our standardized tests and life expectancy rates. Every country that beats us (with a few exceptions in Asia) are really only beating us in racism and corruption. Do you have a source for that info? I find it hard to believe that America keeps their stats perfectly while the rest of the world cheats on their numbers. Do you honestly believe that America is the best educated country in the world? The same country that pushes to teach fairy tales over science in many places? I think the only reason Americans think they are better than the rest is because Americans say it so often and are willing to ignore statistics when it suits them to do so. Maybe America's stats aren't perfect, but the fact is that we have federally mandated standardized tests that other nations don't conform to. And those scores can't be compared to any nation (which is almost every nation) if they don't have a compatible testing system and compatible federal law. Canada and South Korea are, off the top of my head, the only countries that are even close to that requirement. Sweden's test scores and census results, which define their statistics, aren't legitimate because they have no federal agency that checks them, and it is in Sweden's interest to produce great statistics. The burden of proof lies with the group that publishes those statistics as an argument of their merit and as a result, against the US as the worlds greatest nation, not the other way around. There is no proof for the validity of any source that shows that European educational systems turn out better test scores than Americans. And by the way, I don't give a fuck about test scores as a measuring stick. They are useless to the argument of which nation is the greatest. Steve Jobs probably would get outscored by a boy who can memorize every work of shakespeare. That doesn't invent billion dollar industries though, creativity and intellectual enterprise does. And America will never be surpassed there no matter how bad things get. My point is this: The TV show argues that America is not the greatest nation in the world based on statistics, and that is a hollow argument. Numbers do not define the whole experience of living in a country in any way. If the US isn't the world's best nation, fine. But this video does nothing to make that case.
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Post by Juggs on Oct 21, 2014 12:37:17 GMT -5
They're accurate only until you consider who moderates those statistics. In education, we test everyone. For standardized tests in the EU, they only test rich private school white kids. Minorities and the poor have a habit of "losing" their tests, while the USA has laws that require we submit every test to be considered. Life expectency, poverty and many other issues are the same. We count the "undesirable" people in our censuses and bring them in with open arms to the country, before you even consider problems with immigration. I think it makes america great that we take in people of all backgrounds, even if they weaken our standardized tests and life expectancy rates. Every country that beats us (with a few exceptions in Asia) are really only beating us in racism and corruption. Canada? I love Canada. It's not the America in my opinion, but Ontario in particular is as similar as I can get to Vermont outside of the USA. Plus, we've discussed at length my love for poutine (I realize that's quebec primarily, but still.)
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Post by Jancey on Oct 21, 2014 12:46:10 GMT -5
My point is this: The TV show argues that America is not the greatest nation in the world based on statistics, and that is a hollow argument. Numbers do not define the whole experience of living in a country in any way. If the US isn't the world's best nation, fine. But this video does nothing to make that case. It isn't arguing solely based on statistics. In his 3 minute "rant", he talks about statistics for 25 seconds. He isn't saying America isn't the greatest country in the world because of our life expectancy lol.
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Post by Juggs on Oct 21, 2014 12:50:27 GMT -5
My point is this: The TV show argues that America is not the greatest nation in the world based on statistics, and that is a hollow argument. Numbers do not define the whole experience of living in a country in any way. If the US isn't the world's best nation, fine. But this video does nothing to make that case. It isn't arguing solely based on statistics. In his 3 minute "rant", he talks about statistics for 25 seconds. He isn't saying America isn't the greatest country in the world because of our life expectancy lol. If you want to take his opinion on the rest of it, that's fine. I just want to challenge anyone who denies America is a great nation based on statistics alone. A lot of people do that and it irks me. edit: this reply was actually agreeing with you. It came off a bit hostile sorry.
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Post by Jindred on Oct 21, 2014 13:17:48 GMT -5
Like I said, what does it include? Murder? suicide? Terrorism? My grandpa died at 99, my gramma at 98, my aunt is still alive at 90. My biological father is still alive at 97. I think we live a long time. I doubt other countries live as long. Except maybe a small sample. Japan may live longer but not much. No way are we that bad at "Natural deaths" We lower our life expectancy by murder, suicide, and such. We are a huge country, and lots of people. If it did include terrorism deaths that would be the tiniest portion of deaths.. You are more likely to trip fall and die than to be killed by terrorist attack. Since 1985 in America 3500 people have died due to terrorism, thats even me rounding it up. And of course 3000 of those were due to 9/11. So in 18 years 500 deaths due to terrorism and in one big year 3000 deaths due to terrorism. So if we average the 3500 out in 19 years including 9/11 which skews the statistic greatly, because it was one huge attack the size of which has only ever happened once in America. That is roughly 184 deaths a year in 19 years. If we remove 9/11 from that equation and mark it as an uncommon and freak occurrence, which it is as its equal has never happened before. 28 deaths per year in 18 years if 9/11 is removed from the equation. So whether we go with 184 deaths a year which is very skewed by 1 giant year that is 6x more than 18 years combined or with 28 deaths a year which is likely more accurate, you are more likely to die of tripping and falling, food poisoning, alcohol poisoning, driving, or your neighbour murdering you. Roughly 2.4 million people die a year now in the USA. So if you include terrorism (9/11 included) that is 184 deaths a year out of 2.4 million a year.. I doubt that would change your death rate at all.. as that is like a .008% of your total deaths a year. Thats not gonna change your life expectancy stats at all..
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Post by saskabronco on Oct 22, 2014 0:41:36 GMT -5
Do you honestly believe that America is the best educated country in the world? The same country that pushes to teach fairy tales over science in many places? You're really going to go there in this discussion? Yes, because it is relevant. We are talking about education and too large a portion of America is locked in a fight over whether the children should be taught actual science or fairy tales. That is a problem and is one area that America is not the greatest at.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 0:49:21 GMT -5
You're really going to go there in this discussion? Yes, because it is relevant. We are talking about education and too large a portion of America is locked in a fight over whether the children should be taught actual science or fairy tales. That is a problem and is one area that America is not the greatest at. If our education system is not the best why do all the foreign students come here? Come on name me one other country that has anything near Harvard, Yale, MIT, Dartmouth, etc. It's not even close. My daughter got her masters at University of Cincinnati and she was the only USA born person in her class. All the rest were mostly from Asia. (disclaimer, not the whole class just the genetic class of about fifteen)
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