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Post by Morkim on Jun 10, 2015 17:15:21 GMT -5
Carson Palmer didn't work out? Palmer turned out to be above average overall, but he didn't live to expectations as a #1 overall pick. He was good for about 5 season with Cincinnati, and that was it. Did horrible with Oakland and can't seem to stay healthy with the Cardinals despite playing good last year. so he was good until he got hurt? I mean, living up to the first over all pick is a lot different than not panning out.
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Post by Juggs on Jun 10, 2015 20:11:41 GMT -5
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Palmer the owner of a middling 0-1 playoff record? I recall him losing to the Steelers once and losing to Carolina this year on the bench.
He's been beyond inconsistent even at his best when he was in cincy. I would say that he has been a failed investment since he never really took the franchise QB mantle at any point and honestly never was good enough to contend for the SB.
Edit: looked it up. He's 0-2 but he's never started a playoff game. The second loss was against Mark Sanchez and the jets, where he came off the bench and got picked off to lose.
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Post by steelersfan4life56 on Jun 10, 2015 20:41:19 GMT -5
Because of Howard or because of Christian Hackenberg? Hack
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Post by cityofchamps on Jun 10, 2015 22:19:34 GMT -5
But Quarterbacks ALWAYS get overdrafted. Look at Christian Ponder. Look at E.J. Manuel. The Bills will reach for a QB because that is the only thing they need to be a serious playoff contender. The past 3 years QB's have NOT been overdrafted. This year there were 2 and neither was a surprise. Last year 3 guys got drafted, but Manziel and Bridgewater were drafted very late instead. Manuel in 2013 was a shocker, but he was the only QB drafted in the 1st round. Things have changed over the years now. Cook and Hackenberg are the only guarantees to be drafted in the 1st round unless something crazy happens. As much as I love Ohio State, it wouldn't surprise me if Cardale Jones stock falls this year. Lets not forget that a lot of people said the same thing a year ago that the 2015 class would have a good draft class, yet here we are now and lots of people don't trust either Winston or Mariota. NFL teams should know by now that USC QB's never pan out anyway. Kessler isn't even worth taking in the 2nd round right now IMO. I'd rather have Dak Prescott or Jared Goff over him. Jared Goff maybe, but Dak Prescott? Tebow 2.0 without the hype? No way.
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Post by MarchingOn on Jun 10, 2015 22:22:31 GMT -5
Since we're doing "2.0's" right now:
Cardale Jones = Jamarcus Russell 2.0
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Post by patriotsk1d on Jun 10, 2015 22:25:12 GMT -5
But Quarterbacks ALWAYS get overdrafted. Look at Christian Ponder. Look at E.J. Manuel. The Bills will reach for a QB because that is the only thing they need to be a serious playoff contender. The past 3 years QB's have NOT been overdrafted. This year there were 2 and neither was a surprise. Last year 3 guys got drafted, but Manziel and Bridgewater were drafted very late instead. Manuel in 2013 was a shocker, but he was the only QB drafted in the 1st round. Things have changed over the years now. Cook and Hackenberg are the only guarantees to be drafted in the 1st round unless something crazy happens. As much as I love Ohio State, it wouldn't surprise me if Cardale Jones stock falls this year. Lets not forget that a lot of people said the same thing a year ago that the 2015 class would have a good draft class, yet here we are now and lots of people don't trust either Winston or Mariota. NFL teams should know by now that USC QB's never pan out anyway. Kessler isn't even worth taking in the 2nd round right now IMO. I'd rather have Dak Prescott or Jared Goff over him. So let me get this straight, Matt Leinart didnt pan out and Carson Palmer didnt live up to expectations(but was still a solid QB), so that means every USC QB is a bust, even though Kessler didnt even though it is a completely different system and coaching staff from what Leinart and Palmer played in? That doesnt make much sense. Kessler put up big numbers last year against strong competition in a more modern like NFL offense. If he puts up the same production next year then there is no reason he wouldn't be a first round pick if not top 10.
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Post by cityofchamps on Jun 10, 2015 22:37:12 GMT -5
The past 3 years QB's have NOT been overdrafted. This year there were 2 and neither was a surprise. Last year 3 guys got drafted, but Manziel and Bridgewater were drafted very late instead. Manuel in 2013 was a shocker, but he was the only QB drafted in the 1st round. Things have changed over the years now. Cook and Hackenberg are the only guarantees to be drafted in the 1st round unless something crazy happens. As much as I love Ohio State, it wouldn't surprise me if Cardale Jones stock falls this year. Lets not forget that a lot of people said the same thing a year ago that the 2015 class would have a good draft class, yet here we are now and lots of people don't trust either Winston or Mariota. NFL teams should know by now that USC QB's never pan out anyway. Kessler isn't even worth taking in the 2nd round right now IMO. I'd rather have Dak Prescott or Jared Goff over him. So let me get this straight, Matt Leinart didnt pan out and Carson Palmer didnt live up to expectations(but was still a solid QB), so that means every USC QB is a bust, even though Kessler didnt even though it is a completely different system and coaching staff from what Leinart and Palmer played in? That doesnt make much sense. Kessler put up big numbers last year against strong competition in a more modern like NFL offense. If he puts up the same production next year then there is no reason he wouldn't be a first round pick if not top 10. I think this is the first post I have ever agreed with you on.
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Post by cityofchamps on Jun 10, 2015 22:44:07 GMT -5
Since we're doing "2.0's" right now: Cardale Jones = Jamarcus Russell 2.0 I think Jamarcus Russell's situation was unique in a way and can no longer be replicated in today's NFL, now that there is a rookie salary cap. Russell got paid like a Top NFL QB before he ever played a snap. Also, the Draft process was much different then. With Russell, the NFL scouts fell FAR too in love with his combination of size, athleticism, and arm strength and nothing ever really came out about his accuracy/maturity issues. I think he sparked the whole maturity/intangibles infatuation with today's NFL Draft talk. The thing was, Russell signed a $68 Million contract with $31 guaranteed and wasn't named the starter opening day. He was protected. He was sheltered. How can you expect him to have a hungry attitude when he was given everything before he ever earned it? I think if Russell was drafted in today's NFL, things might have turned out differently. The leash is much, much shorter on first round rookies than it used to be.
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Post by MarchingOn on Jun 10, 2015 22:58:26 GMT -5
Since we're doing "2.0's" right now: Cardale Jones = Jamarcus Russell 2.0 I think Jamarcus Russell's situation was unique in a way and can no longer be replicated in today's NFL, now that there is a rookie salary cap. Russell got paid like a Top NFL QB before he ever played a snap. Also, the Draft process was much different then. With Russell, the NFL scouts fell FAR too in love with his combination of size, athleticism, and arm strength and nothing ever really came out about his accuracy/maturity issues. I think he sparked the whole maturity/intangibles infatuation with today's NFL Draft talk. The thing was, Russell signed a $68 Million contract with $31 guaranteed and wasn't named the starter opening day. He was protected. He was sheltered. How can you expect him to have a hungry attitude when he was given everything before he ever earned it? I think if Russell was drafted in today's NFL, things might have turned out differently. The leash is much, much shorter on first round rookies than it used to be. I agree with everything you said about the rookie salary cap, and perhaps Russell being the guy to spark the maturity debate, but you mentioned scouts falling in love with Russell's size/athleticism/arm strength and I'm seeing Cardale being praised for precisely the same reasons. Not that there's anything wrong with having a cannon arm, great size, and great athleticism, but you need more than that and I don't think Cardale's shown enough in those other areas. I will say I don't think Cardale has maturity or intangible issues though, he's a great (and funny) guy. However, Cardale's accuracy on short/intermediate routes wasn't really that good in the games he started for OSU. He survived/depended almost solely on the deep ball and his legs. There's also the question of how much did Urban Meyer's system benefit Cardale, and I think it benefits him greatly. OSU's offense is very similar to Oregon's. There were a ton of questions asked about Mariota and how he'll fare playing in pro system, since what Oregon runs is so different from what you see in the league. That same question is applicable to OSU's offense as well. It's insanely QB friendly. Put Cardale at the helm of an offense like Stanford, he's not going to look nearly as good.
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Post by cityofchamps on Jun 10, 2015 23:50:02 GMT -5
I think Jamarcus Russell's situation was unique in a way and can no longer be replicated in today's NFL, now that there is a rookie salary cap. Russell got paid like a Top NFL QB before he ever played a snap. Also, the Draft process was much different then. With Russell, the NFL scouts fell FAR too in love with his combination of size, athleticism, and arm strength and nothing ever really came out about his accuracy/maturity issues. I think he sparked the whole maturity/intangibles infatuation with today's NFL Draft talk. The thing was, Russell signed a $68 Million contract with $31 guaranteed and wasn't named the starter opening day. He was protected. He was sheltered. How can you expect him to have a hungry attitude when he was given everything before he ever earned it? I think if Russell was drafted in today's NFL, things might have turned out differently. The leash is much, much shorter on first round rookies than it used to be. I agree with everything you said about the rookie salary cap, and perhaps Russell being the guy to spark the maturity debate, but you mentioned scouts falling in love with Russell's size/athleticism/arm strength and I'm seeing Cardale being praised for precisely the same reasons. Not that there's anything wrong with having a cannon arm, great size, and great athleticism, but you need more than that and I don't think Cardale's shown enough in those other areas. I will say I don't think Cardale has maturity or intangible issues though, he's a great (and funny) guy. However, Cardale's accuracy on short/intermediate routes wasn't really that good in the games he started for OSU. He survived/depended almost solely on the deep ball and his legs. There's also the question of how much did Urban Meyer's system benefit Cardale, and I think it benefits him greatly. OSU's offense is very similar to Oregon's. There were a ton of questions asked about Mariota and how he'll fare playing in pro system, since what Oregon runs is so different from what you see in the league. That same question is applicable to OSU's offense as well. It's insanely QB friendly. Put Cardale at the helm of an offense like Stanford, he's not going to look nearly as good. Of course there are a TON of issues with Cardale Jones. We have only seen him in 3 games as a starter, but those 3 games included the Sugar Bowl, and the National Championship Game (admittedly where he only had 1 TD in both games which were more won by Elliot). However, that at least showed that he has poise to go along with his size/arm strength/athleticism. The key word with Jones is IF. I am predisposed to believe in his potential until he shows otherwise.
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